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Transgender Law Opponents Look To Referendum

The clock could start running as early as today or tomorrow on an effort to petition to referendum the transgender anti-discrimination bill passed Tuesday by the Baltimore County Council.

Ann Miller, a Phoenix Republican who opposed the bill, told Patch after the vote that she and other opponents would attempt to place the issue on the 2012 ballot.

"We're focusing on the next phase—petitioning this bill to referendum," said Miller.

If successful, it could be the first time in county history that a county law has been successfully petitioned to the ballot, according to some long-time council observers.

The hurdle for getting the law on the ballot is high.

Opponents will have 45 days from the day the county executive signs the bill to collect the signatures of registered county voters equivalent to 10 percent of the total number of votes cast for governor in the county in the last gubernatorial election—about 28,826 signatures.

Petitioners can buy some extra time if they can collect 9,513 valid signatures in 30 days. The Board of Elections usually recommends that petitioners collect twice the required signatures in order to overcome typical rejection rates.

The balance of the signatures would be due in another 30 days.

Don Mohler, chief of staff and a spokesman for Kevin Kamenetz, said he expects the county executive to sign the bill as soon as the council delivers it to him—perhaps as early as today or Thursday.

Mohler said it "depends on when council staff gets bills down (it's) usually timely."

Buzz Beeler

10:21 pm on Wednesday, February 22, 2012

Why don't they try and take care of first things first. It was announced today on Patch that the county is being investigated by the feds for discrimination and ADA violations and this has been going on for years.

What makes anyone think this issue will be any different.

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reader

9:04 am on Thursday, February 23, 2012

Someone needs to let us know where to sign up.

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Zoobie

1:48 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012

Exaactly..........Where can i SIGN it ???

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RARE MARYLAND INDEPENDENT

4:15 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012

4 signatures coming from the RARE household. Let's find out where to sign and mobilize.

Mara Drummond

3:47 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012

Do you get joy from taking away the right to work, the right to earn an income to support a family the right to get medical treatment at a hospital, the right to rent an apartment or the right to buy a home from a person? If you sign a petition to put this bill up for referendum, you are really just showing the world how un-Christian and how inhuman you really are.

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Buck Harmon

6:23 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

The creation of pointless laws that have never been proven to be needed is wrong.
Laws that will never be able to be equally~fairly enforced are a big part of current problems within our court system.
The sloppy way by which this proposal was fashioned is a clear example of why there are so many bad laws on the books.
Quirk and Almond have done a huge dis-service to the public at large by wasting a lot of time with no possible outcome that will help anyone... transgender human beings will find that this law will never be enforced.....the end result will be similar to the end result of peeing into the wind...

RyanBelAir

5:34 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012

If anyone feels like this law is not necessary, I would encourage them to find the video of the Rosedale McDonald's incident in which a transgender woman was attacked by two other women. While she was unconscious, the women continued to beat her. The floor was covered in blood. They tried to smash her head between the door and the door jamb, which caused her to convulse in a seizure. NOBODY tried to do anything to stop the attack. Witnesses say the attack was unprovoked, that the transgender woman re-entered the restaurant from a restroom, and the two women began punching and choking her immediately.

While we may never know the full story- what took place is inexcusable. This law guarantees that everyone who lives, works, payes taxes, or raises a family in our area is entitled to the same rights and responsibilities as anyone else.

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M. Sullivan

10:03 am on Friday, February 24, 2012

So, RyanBelAir, what exactly are the limits of weirdness that we as a society should tolerate?
If someone decides that they want to come to work wearing a thong and pasties, is that OK? If they decide that their favorite cologne is cat urine, is that OK? Just exactly where is the line that should not be crossed to be properly integrated into civilized society? Or are there no limits? Every new law that is passed protecting some new level of weirdness or non-conformity to civilized behavior that has evolved over thousands of years just moves that line a little further down.

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Buck Harmon

6:27 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

This incident has nothing what so ever to do with the bad law that has been pushed here.
If this law were in full force at the time of the beating....the beating would still have taken place.... the attackers were caught and dealt with by the current system proving that the need for this law is not there.

Don Twine

1:35 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012

M. Sullivan, forgive me for being blunt but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Do you even UNDERSTAND what a transgendered person is??? And I'm pretty sure that I heard that this law also covers anti-discrimination for gay people too. So you're actually putting this in the same category as a dress code??? Are you kidding me?? To use the term weird to apply to someone different from you is defined as one word - BIGOT. This bill is meant to protect people from those exactly like YOU. Do some RESEARCH on a topic before you spew your opinion. And learn some HUMANITY while you're at it.

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M. Sullivan

4:44 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012

Mr. Twine. My question to you is; do YOU understand what a transgendered person is? There are several, quite ambiguous definitions of transgender, which leaves a lot open to interpretation. Very convenient, eh?
My examples go to the extreme to prove a point. Sorry I need to explain that to you. I use the term weird in the sense of being far outside the norm. I do not agree with the legislated acceptance of every increasingly strange lifestyles that certain people decide they need to throw out there. Civilization as we know it has evolved for thousands of years using mores based on the natural activities of most living things. My question is this; regardless of any religious beliefs, just what are the limits of acceptance beyond the norm ?
You can call me a bigot if you like. That is one of the usual bombs thrown by those who try to silence opposing views. There are plenty of names I could call you, but I will try to remain civil. Learn some Humanity? That would be a suggestion you should take for yourself.

ZIG

4:34 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012

Mr. Sullivan is an un-american hate monger. spent 5 years in the service of our country protecting his right to be stupid.

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M. Sullivan

4:57 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012

Hey Irvin, I see you have decided to join this conversation with an eloquent, well thought out spewing of insults. Based on the level of your insults, I can only assume your "5 years in the service of our country" wasn't very productive.

Don Twine

5:32 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012

I do understand what a transgendered person is. Being a gay man myself, and being in the GLBT community, I've known some transgendered people. There may be some variation on specifics, but generally transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's "assigned sex". Just like homosexuality, this is not a choice or a "lifestyle." Transgendered people are aware of what they are usually at a very young age.
You don't need to go to those extremes to prove your point. It just makes you look like you don't understand the issue. And I have news for you - GLBT people have always been around. It's society that has been evolving. In the past, you didn't see as many people like this because they were afraid for their lives if outed. But they indeed existed. Kids are bullied and people are beaten down all of the time for being different. Being civil and evolved means being tolerant, accepting and compassionate for people who are different from you. I'm sorry for the bigot label, but I do think you need to step back and re-examine the issue, or maybe actually get to know a transgendered person before you pass judgement. I can't tell you what the "limit" is to acceptance, but certainly the line should be drawn outside those who can't help what they are. I'm at least within that limit, which does mean I know A LOT of humanity.

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M. Sullivan

5:45 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012

I believe you are starting to understand my point in all this conversation; what are the limits of acceptance in a civilized society? To draw that line "outside those who can't help what they are" isn't necessarily best because there are a lot of highly disturbed and even dangerous people who "can't help what they are". As far as transgendered people, I've heard that many in the Gay community are not very comfortable with Transexuals either. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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Buck Harmon

7:20 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

What is the LEGAL definition of a gay human being?

ZIG

5:58 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012

I tagged mr sullivan as a hatemonger based on what I have seen over the past few weeks. I t reeks with hate. My service was productive. Was yours?

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M. Sullivan

8:47 am on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Irvin, I don't hate anyone. However, any time someone expresses an opinion that goes against the liberal cause of the week, or makes an observation that everyone knows, but is afraid to say, they are immediately hit with the word bombs of "hatemonger", "bigot", "racist", etc. These are quick and simple reactions from those who are, apparently, incapable of an intelligent discussion and want to try to silence the opposition to the "political correctness" of the day. This practice has been used throughout history to advance the cause of oppressive regimes.
Being that I haven't seen much in the way of substantive commentary in any of your history, I can only assume that you are incapable of anything else but word bombs and insults. Therefore, I view your responses as simple rantings. By the way, congratulations on your productive service. I didn't know there were any WW1 veterans still alive.

Don Twine

6:02 pm on Monday, February 27, 2012

This bill wasn't crafted to protect those types of people, and I'm sure you know that. I hope you're not trying to turn my words against me, but if that's the case, I'll amend them by saying people who can't help what they are AND aren't a danger to themselves or to others.
I haven't heard personally about any gay people being uncomfortable, but there may be. It's human nature to not be automatically comfortable with someone who is different. But my experience tells me that this usually happens when they don't get to know the person. But again, we're talking about TOLERANCE, not personal likeability. You, or any other straight OR gay person doesn't have to personally like or be best friends with everyone they encounter in life, but everyone desserves tolerance, basic respect and human dignity. Is that too much to ask for?

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Buck Harmon

6:35 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Why would a transgender, or anyone for that matter be entitled to receive extra protection under the law that is supposed to treat everyone equally? Quirk has never justified , or answered this question to date. Not with facts or figures.

Zoobie

1:05 am on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Equal protection under the law is already provided by a document known as The Constitution Of The United States. Outlining each little splinter group for "Special Protection" is not necessary. Want to buy a house?, go out and work for it. Want insurance benefits?, Buy a Policy. We all have wants, and we know how to get them,
EARN THEM!!! Want to go out and dress as a man/ woman?, go ahead. Tolerance is earned, not mandated by Government. Act right, and you'll be treated right. Now, if that's bigoted, well that's tough. Live with it!!!

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ZIG

10:27 am on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Mr Sullivan, I congratulate you. Your writings of the last few weeks have caused me to comment. I should have known better. I will not change and neither will you Further comments on my part will be counter productive. I am a loyal American and a veteran Good bye

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M. Sullivan

10:53 am on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Have a good day, Mr. Zeigenfuse. From what I see of your history, we may agree on one thing; I believe Ronald Reagan was the greatest president in modern history and we could certainly use more like him.

Buzz Beeler

11:04 am on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Mr. Zeigenfust, I would have to agree with Mr. Sullivan. Irrespective of ones stance the tone of the comments are the issue. You can choose to disagree, but after reviewing your background I was disappointed in your choice of words coming from a former educated Marine. Intolerance does not allow for discourse or debate.

You can choose to take an opposing view with anyone but as I have always believed, do with articulation not degradation.

I stay out of the discussions on these matters, because I realize you cannot change ones beliefs on these issues. It's hard to override humane nature.

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Buck Harmon

6:39 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

The reason that I comment on this issue has nothing to do with transgender human beings, but rather elected official public servants wasting time creating bad law that no one will ever benefit from...not even those that it's intended to help.

Don Twine

11:58 am on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Mr. Zubalik - It would be nice to think that things in this country are that simple, but they aren't. History has shown us the the Constitution is not this perfect thing that makes everything work. Just ask women or blacks. That's why we have AMENDMENTS. I'm sure that if you were elderly and were discriminated when applying for a job, you would want legislation that protects you from that particular "splintered group" of older people. I'll never understand why people like you call it "special" protection or "special" rights. It's not special if a group wants the same rights as you. It's EQUAL rights.
As for your comments about getting a job and insurance, I think you're missing the boat totally here. That's what transgendered people are trying to do! They're being discriminated against. And if you think a transgendered person is just a cross dresser, then you've missed the harbor along with the boat! Do some googling and read up on the subject before you give an opinion.
The government wouldn't need to mandate tolerance if people had the compassion to have it naturally.

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Buck Harmon

6:47 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

I believe that the real issue here has to do with current laws not being enforced properly.
Adding another layer to laws that are already, perhaps, not being enforced properly will only add insult to injury, and will not achieve the purpose intended.
I would suggest that anyone who thinks that this poorly written law will help the situation...read it...and then come back with some answers...or questions..

Don Twine

12:27 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

M. Sullivan, I'm sorry for throwing the "bigot" word at you, but in this case I think you put a target on your back when you equated the transgender issue with a simple dress code, coupled with using the word "weird" over and over. I know you said you were trying to prove a point, but I think it backfired. It just made you look uninformed on the issue and a bit cold. And bigots tend to be uninformed and/or fearful of the group they are bigoted against. But yes, it is a strong word to use on someone.
However, I am starting to tire over this new defensive stance that socially conservative people, mainly those with anti-gay or anti-transgendered attitudes, are using. The stance that makes them the victims simply because we're finally standing up for our equal rights (NOT "special" rights) and more and more people are coming around to understanding the issues and speaking up with us. I guess it's a last ditch effort, as they see the tides turning, and social evolution continuing to happen. Those people, including many religious organizations, need to adapt to how the world changes. And some won't, and I get that. But those attitudes will fizzle out eventually as older generations die out and new generations are born and grow up. History shows that this has always happened. At least I can take comfort in that after I read some of the comments here.

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Buck Harmon

6:48 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

This IS a VERY WEIRD law.... read it...then comment on it.

Zoobie

5:59 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Thats the trouble with homosexuals and 'transgenders'. They want their deviance to become acceptable. Same as the "Hippy Generation" of the sixties and seventies, 'I'm OK, you're OK'. Thing is, people with these dissorders make a conscious decision to act out their conditions, and we' are expected to accept and condone it.They have their little groups travelling from state to state to implore "Tollerence" from legislators to get these ridiculous laws passed which violate all the norms of society. Well, you're not normal, and people of good will will rise up and take the fight to THE BALOT. Case Closed.!!!

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Don Twine

7:05 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Oh Jeeez, poor John, I don't even know where to begin, and frankly won't waste as many keystrokes on this response. I'll just say how sad it is that people like you are so uneducated and so ill informed about gay and transgendered people. It's so sad that people like you are the reason that gay people commit suicide and are beaten and killed by those who think like you. We can only hope that the new generation CONTINUES to outnumber people like you.

Don Twine

6:47 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

...And there you go, M. Sullivan.... John Zubalik...much better example of a bigot!

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Don Twine

6:56 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Um, Buck, maybe it's because current law wasn't working well enough. Maybe have a conversation with some of the people who have been experiencing the discrimination and that may give you a better perspective. It's easy to sit back in your own comfy environment, and think that everything outside of your bubble is sunshine and lollypops and doesn't need fixing.

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Buck Harmon

7:18 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Don Twine, The questions that I pose here are legitimate, and to date without answers.
Why? perhaps if you could respond with some facts and not the normal illusion gab, the differences, or divide here could be narrowed into something positive that would work for all. Please have a shot at a few answers instead of pointless comments that only broaden the difference. You may find it refreshing...

Buck Harmon

6:57 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

I would like Quirk or Almond to answer these questions:
At what point is a human being considered to be transgender by law?
When they start feeling like they might be the opposite sex?
When they begin to dress like the opposite sex?
When they start to take pills to force the transition to the opposite sex?
Or after all of the above has been accomplished and they have had the sex change surgery?
The identification of a transgender by law is a huge, yet un answered question that should have been addressed and identified accurately before any law such as this were even considered. Vague interpretation is the springboard of bad, court clogging law.

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Buck Harmon

7:02 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

How many cases brought by transgenders with regard to the feeling of being discriminated against have been lost in Baltimore Co. .... or the entire state for that matter.
I would say that far more senior citizens have missed out on employment opportunities because of age than transgenders have because of claiming to be transgender.

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Buck Harmon

7:07 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

I have been trying to get answers to these questions since the law was first proposed.
Why would Quirk and Almond choose not to provide answers?
Even those that post in favor can't give a logical response based on facts.

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M. Sullivan

8:24 am on Wednesday, February 29, 2012

Excellent points, Buck. This alone should tie up the courts for quite some time.

Don Twine

7:11 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Buck, I get your concerns, but how do you think the extra layer of law would hurt? Is there really such a thing as too much protection law?

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Buck Harmon

7:29 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Don, I am not opposed to this law because it is designed to offer additional protection to transgender human beings. I am opposed to the creation of ANY new law that is severely flawed from it's inception.
Transgenders will be sorely disappointed when they attempt to use these protections, and they don't, can't work because of the hap hazard way that they were thrown together. If answers could be provided to my concerns, rather than the divide statements, I might better understand the perceived outcome better.
Doesn't really matter what I think though, I'm just a guy with simple questions.

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Buck Harmon

7:31 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

I would suggest that you read the proposal Don.

Don Twine

8:32 pm on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Buck, I did read the bill. I'm no legal expert, but from what I read, everything looked up to par. As for the questions you posed above, I don't think it needs to be that specific. If a person identifies themselves as transgendered, or even gay for that matter, that should be it. I identify myself as gay, and that should be all I need to do. What am I supposed to do? Prove it? I don't think the person interviewing me for a job would want me to do that! (that was intended to be a joke, Buck, just to be clear) Or have an additional section on my driver's license saying I'm certified gay in Maryland? All joking aside, the questions you pose probably can never be officially answered because they may varie from individual to individual. I think the important defining thing is self identification. Unlike other minorities who mainly have physical traits that make them different (age, race, gender), LGBT is more about the internal identification. I know that can make people nervous about legal loopholes, like you are, but for now, that may be the best thing that we can go by. I say we just give this a wait and see attitude, and see how it goes. I honestly don't think it will bring more harm than good, in my opinion. Laws can be amended down the road if need be.

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M. Sullivan

8:23 am on Wednesday, February 29, 2012

Don,
Using your interpretation, I could decide that it would be fun to hang out in woman's locker rooms and, if confronted, simply declare myself to be transgendered.

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Buck Harmon

8:54 am on Wednesday, February 29, 2012

You are correct M. Sullivan.... many problematic flaws will surface...

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